The Digging Strategy is made moot by the fact that Protect does the same thing with the exception that the next move is unknown in Protect's case. But for all the perks that Flygon has, offensively, it's inferior to Garchomp, and in many cases, defensively, too. Flygon is one of my favorite Pokemon, but sadly, it is only 'decent'.

THis is some of the most hilarious stuff I've ever heard.

The R/S ban was reasonable and I am aware that he's in "limbo" now along with Deoxys S but at the time of my posting, Wobbuffet was still relegated to Uber. And geez you're still thinking the whole thing wrong. 'Countering" How about playing with you're own set piece instead of allowing you're opponent to dictate play? It's like you're still living in 2003, before there were well over 100 competitive Pokémon. It is flat out impossible to counter everyone, not to mention with moves like Mean Look and abilities like Arena Trap, any argument that Wobbuffet is annoying because you can't switch out is redundant. So instead of countering, maybe you should try and play by your own strategy, like trick rooming, rain dancing, sub passing or whatever.


Skarmory or Forretress will take Fling? Are you insane? No one has ever, ever, predicted Fling. That's the entire point of the move; it can and will utterly devaste opponents. With a base attack of 130 holding Iron Ball, fling is strong enough to run on any non dark Pokémon and plenty of traditionally special attackers. Not to mention that with over 200 Pokémon eligible to learn the move, plenty of Pokémon can have bulk type coverage and sandstorm resistance while carrying Fling. Hell Marowak learns it without a TM and he can hit whatever the fuck he likes.
It's lovely on Cacturn too, who becomes a monster of a mixed sweeper with trick room support. Fling is a move that is highly likely to OHKO, and even if you only get the one, a 130 base with 100% accuracy is NEVER a wasted move slot.

Oh come on. I've been on shoddy, evasion clause is a fixture there and I've seen plenty of clowns refuse to play against "hax" items.

Countering things does not mean that you cannot play by your own strategy. Instead, opposite to what you said, it allows your strategy to work. Let's say, for this example, that you are using a team based around stalling the opponents. You need counters to strong offensive Pokemon, such as Garchomp, in order for a stall strategy to work because you would otherwise be essentially allowing it to set up and sweep your team. Countering is also important for prediction because it would be useless to predict an attack and not be able to switch in and beat the attacker.

Being in against Wobbuffet is different than being in against a Pokemon with Mean Look or Arena Trap. In the case of Arena Trap, only two Pokemon have that ability. They are Dugtrio and Trapinch. Arena Trap does not work against Pokemon of the Flying type or Pokemon with the ability Levitate. Also, the two Pokemon who have Arena Trap are fragile and cannot stay in against durable Pokemon that can take their attacks. However, Wobbuffet's Shadow Tag is not limited in that way; only other Wobbuffets can switch out without the use of Baton Pass, U-Turn, or Shed Shell. Also, Wobbuffet's immense HP allows it to use moves such as Counter and Mirror Coat against strong and durable Pokemon, whereas Dugtrio and Trapinch would have to switch out. As for the move Mean Look, it is a move that is rarely used by the majority of Pokemon that can use it. And by the time they use it, the opponent could have switched to a counter anyway. Once Wobbuffet comes in, the opponent cannot switch in, hence it being difficult to counter Wobbuffet; its ability is active as soon as it comes in, but an opponent could switch out before Mean Look. Mean Look is also limited by PP; at most, it can only be used 8 times. Shadow Tag is unlimited.



A lot of the Pokemon that would even viably use Fling are countered by Skarmory and Forretress anyway. It will only work once, and that is not even guaranteed. Like any other item, it can be taken away with Knock Off. And if you fail to use it effectively, then you won't be able to use it again. You'll also be out of an item. The most commonly used items, such as Leftovers, Choice Band, etc, are used because they work over the long term; sacrificing an item for a one-time deal is both useless and wasteful because you could instead be getting more over the long-term that is basically guaranteed.



There is a stigma against things like that because they were not/are not allowed in many tournaments.

"The R/S ban was reasonable and I am aware that he's in "limbo" now along with Deoxys S but at the time of my posting, Wobbuffet was still relegated to Uber. And geez you're still thinking the whole thing wrong. 'Countering" How about playing with you're own set piece instead of allowing you're opponent to dictate play? It's like you're still living in 2003, before there were well over 100 competitive Pokémon. It is flat out impossible to counter everyone, not to mention with moves like Mean Look and abilities like Arena Trap, any argument that Wobbuffet is annoying because you can't switch out is redundant. So instead of countering, maybe you should try and play by your own strategy, like trick rooming, rain dancing, sub passing or whatever."

We are playtesting Wobbuffet. Lots and lots of people have agreed with putting it in OU. We are not stuck in "Wobbuffet is unbeatable mode". However, hastening to unban him would be just as foolish as leaving him banned with our eyes closed.

That said, you hit the nail on the head why Wobbuffet's unbanning was not easy to justify:

"How about playing with you're own set piece instead of allowing you're opponent to dictate play?"

Wobbuffet does not allow you to play your own strategy. It locks you into one move, and depending on what it is it either lets something else set up, or kills whatever got himself locked in. You cannot Rain Dance or Trick Room if Wobby is going to lock you in.

"It is flat out impossible to counter everyone, not to mention with moves like Mean Look and abilities like Arena Trap, any argument that Wobbuffet is annoying because you can't switch out is redundant."

No, they might weaken the argument slightly, but they are in no way making Shadow Tag look tame. For one, the Pokemon with each of these do not have the durability (Dugtrio, Trapinch) or offense (Counter/Mirror Coat/Encore is hard to match, especially if you have to use Mean Look first and your name is Umbreon) to pull off what Wobbuffet does. Then, you have to consider that Arena Trap does not work on anything that flies or Levitates, which tends to be half the opposing team.

Personally, I used to be wanting to leave Wobby out, but after a bit of playtesting I think he's not harmful enough, and lots of things support that. The problem with the Wobbuffet debate is that the masses do not seem to get their facts straight and end up in endless, pointless debate about it, using moot arguments such as the ones you are providing.

I find it unbelievable that you believe that it's Smogon that has its head stuck in a dark hole about Wobbuffet. We are the ones trying to change his tier status from what it was in Advance.

"Skarmory or Forretress will take Fling? Are you insane? No one has ever, ever, predicted Fling. That's the entire point of the move; it can and will utterly devaste opponents. With a base attack of 130 holding Iron Ball, fling is strong enough to run on any non dark Pokémon and plenty of traditionally special attackers. Not to mention that with over 200 Pokémon eligible to learn the move, plenty of Pokémon can have bulk type coverage and sandstorm resistance while carrying Fling. Hell Marowak learns it without a TM and he can hit whatever the fuck he likes.
It's lovely on Cacturn too, who becomes a monster of a mixed sweeper with trick room support. Fling is a move that is highly likely to OHKO, and even if you only get the one, a 130 base with 100% accuracy is NEVER a wasted move slot."

The vast majority of the things that can use Fling already provoke physical walls to come in. Your Cacturne, for example, attracts Skarmory like no tomorrow. The only potential Flingers that don't do that likely don't have a lot of power to begin with. If they want to surprise Special walls, they are better off adopting something like Focus Punch.

Why would you use Fling Marowak? Hey, let's hurl away half of my Attack stat, which is what makes me usable in the first place over the million usable Grounds.

"Oh come on. I've been on shoddy, evasion clause is a fixture there and I've seen plenty of clowns refuse to play against "hax" items."

It is just as chaos said. The ban has been there since the old days, and nobody has bothered to remove it. You might not have noticed, but we removed the taboo on discussing evasion in Stark Mountain less than a week ago. That means we want to think about it together, and then perhaps playtest it. These "clowns on Shoddy" do not represent Smogon, lol.

You are the only ones who invent its 'tier'; any official Nintendo tournament might count all Legendaries as one tier, all fully evolved as another tier, all babies as the lowest, like in the Wii battle game.

That Pearl's been out so long and you're debating the changes to the standards your fansite uses shows you're slow to change, which is better than not debating it at all. It's a good thing you've moved to debate evasion stuff too.

It would have been cleaner to decide to fight without tiers, then sort out those that overwhelm that game and call them ubers, and move on to lower tiers like that. Isn't that how the tiers developed anyways?

Also, single battles are an unbalanced game compared to doubles. You've got your work cut out for you trying to make them work.

Slow to change is not necessarily a bad thing. We try to keep the metagame stable and introduce changes in a way that are manageable. People are not forced to play by our rules; if they want to do whatever, then who cares?

I don't know why people get in a big fuss over tiers. Here is what the tiers do: they

a) clearly highlight usage patterns, in an objective fashion
b) show which Pokemon are threatening, and which ones probably aren't ;/
c) define the metagames.

c) is very important to understand. A standard battle does not mean you have to use all OU Pokemon; there is nothing stopping you from using BL, UU, NU Pokemon. People who cry about their favorite Pokemon being BL instead of OU should probably step back and realize that it doesn't matter and they are causing a fuss about nothing.



then what is your argument? ...



Smogon is a community. If you want to try to balance doubles, then contribute instead of waiting for everyone else to do the work. We really don't step in and interfere with the game _too_ much, so I'm not following how we have to "balance" doubles. Figure out doubles? Maybe. But not balance.


I'd like to backup and address what someone said about "Evasion Clause" on Shoddy. Playing on Shoddy does not make you a great competitive battler; there are hundreds of people who don't know what the hell they are doing. You cannot play a few rounds against scrubs on Shoddy and assume you know what you are talking about, especially if your theorymon skills are so weak that you'd suggest Fling Marowak. Play some tournaments, contribute back to the community, then maybe people will listen. Sleep Clause is uncontroversial.

What! The game has been out for like a YEAR! and only now is he being "playtested." This is some kinda comedy act. I posted on Smogon in JULY OF 07 calling for Wobbuffet to be removed demoted to OU
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=527979#post527979
The reaction is priceless. I even picked up an infraction for the post. The best part was when my argument was claimed to be based on anecdotal evidence. If it was just, "oh I beat Wobbuffet" then yeah it would anecdotal but it's wasn't jut me. Nintendo Australia held over ten tournaments, each one with 128 participants and not a SINGLE TIME was Wobbuffet a member of any victorious side. I know for a fact that no one who made the top 16 in the tourney I participated in used him but many had nevertheless been defeated to get there.

And NOW, in May of 08 are some people on smogon finnally coming around to what I was saying 10 months prior. Well done guys, please send more troops to continue to defend your cult like site.

Nintendo is not a credible source for defining the uber tier. It disallowed Mew and its brethern in the Emerald tour where Mewtwo, Rayquaza and other madmen were allowed. In the Battle Tower, Lati twins are allowed while Celebi and Jirachi are banned.

All you did was tell about one whole tournament that wasn't even in optimal setting (simulators > real battles for playtesting, simply because of the lack of limits by time), and along with stating his weaknesses, declaring it uber. In addition, you were infracted because tier discussion back then was a taboo that always called the same aforementioned crowd foreward that didn't know what they were doing and still present their dumb arguments without any competitive experience whatsoever.

For your "slow" comment, chaos already addressed that, but you decided to ignore it. I guess you don't have an answer.

"Slow to change is not necessarily a bad thing. We try to keep the metagame stable and introduce changes in a way that are manageable. People are not forced to play by our rules; if they want to do whatever, then who cares?"

Hey, as long as you talk shit about Smogon behind our back, you can expect someone to stand up for it. That's the way the world works.

you guys

are all

colossal nerds


just fyi

don't troll man i'll ban you

Well, duh. We actually play this game, unlike you, who just find it an interesting way to test code, and make a nerd magnet website for fun. Thanks for that, though.

And I meant, in the comment of singles vs doubles, that Smogon deals with tiers by looking at them in singles environment and ignoring doubles. Since you always have about twice as many options in double battles, you can't be walled or swept very effectively, making ubers less certain to win against BLs. Thus, tiers are sort of meaningless.

And it's silly to be slow to change in the middle of a new release. What benefit is there to a stable list when the mechanics themselves are getting rewritten?

But, I've made my points by now. I have no desire to join Smogon's community, as I like to play a lot of games rather than get good at just one. I hope since I'm trying not to be rude you don't view this as gossip behind Smogon's back, Mekkah.

It's not like they paid attention to anything that you said, because your "evidence" was anecdotal. It is anecdotal because its not objective data. Also, simulators are better for playtesting than tournaments because each tournament could have different rules and/or they could have restraints on time, so battles will not provide the same quality as those on a simulator. (Hint: Wobbuffet works when you SWITCH IT IN CORRECTLY) Obviously, if you are choosing to switch Wobbuffet in on something with a move like Megahorn or Shadow Ball, then you will never see its effectiveness.



Just because you play the game does NOT mean that you know what you are talking about. Anyone can play but they aren't necessarily good at it.

As for the issue of doubles, I don't see the point to your argument since you said that tiers are meaningless (which they aren't, because without them, one would not have competitive balance). Furthermore, lists change. As chaos said, the goal is to have a stable list that changes with the metagame. Changes are not going to occur right away since the Pokemon that is to be moved up or down is generally tested first in order to ensure that the change is CORRECT.

Wow, did my thread ever explode o_O; It's a shame that all this excellent discussion is actually off topic, but oh well. I don't really care, though, because the whole thing is pretty entertaining. It's very interesting to see how different people and communities view the game.

My own views of the subject is that smogon's metagame, while not official, is one that an extraordinary amount of thought and testing has gone through with seemingly no gain to those doing it because (from what I've heard) most don't even play the game anymore. I think it's pretty admirable that people are testing just so that others can enjoy it (though I also believe that a lot of people will enjoy most anything they're told is fun). If you don't like the rules that Smogon recommends, that's fine. There's nothing preventing you from crafting your own rules and finding those that are like-minded.

I would also like to point out that the counter-point of theorymon, or so it's called (I guess as a counter to theorycrafting for Warcraft), is that it really doesn't take into account the fact that there can only be a maximum of six Pokemon on a team. Very often, someone will come up with a unique idea, only to be crushed by the backlash that [Enter one of Garchomp/Blissey/Skarmory/Bronzong/Infernape/Gengar/Gyarados etc. here] will come in, setup, and sweep/stall. But what if the opponent doesn't have those Pokemon? How does the set compare, then?

I would like people to be a little more accepting of different views and to show patience with those whom they feel are unknowledgable.

Hoo, I meant that we play the game to Eevee kun, who doesn't play Pokemon at all, not to the Smogon-ites. Everyone who feels the need to post in threads like these is a nerd just like Eevee kun says.

And tiers aren't meaningless, that was a bad word to use. In double battles, you cannot truly 'counter' a Pokemon, as there is nothing that can counter 2 Pokemon at once perfectly. As such, a Pokemon of much higher tier can be defeated with teamwork strategies. Actually, Smogon has an article on that subject.

While playing double battles with friends on DS is a much smaller pool of potential resources, enemies, and fewer total battles... it is how the game was meant to be played, so isn't 'inferior' to theorymon style. In fact, playing my enemies friends' preferences against them adds another dimension.

I'd just like to say that any "nerd" comment made on these kinds of sites are pretty much a moot point. ;/

We are all on a pokemon site, no?

Good point. Nothing can be gained by calling someone a nerd considering the environment. Some are just larger nerds in certain areas.

ALL of us?That is bad!

Call me crazy, but I always figured it was up to the game developers to decide their game's rules.

No, otherwise, the developers wouldn't add in an option to edit the rules to your liking.

Thanks guy but I am kinda aware of the hypocrisy of a programmer calling gamers nerds on his own site; that's why it's funny 8)