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Eevee, what was it that you wrote about wanting the Pokémon fan site community to be more [writers block] supportive of each other instead of competitive?

I would like a forum where the Eastern world was more represented. Then I thought, “Why don’t I join a Japanese Pokémon forum that accepts people from other countries?” But how would I find them? Maybe there is someone in Japan thinking similar thoughts?

Would you be able to take an OpenOffice spreadsheet program and turn it into an online feature on your website?

Took me a while to realize that you were saying three different things, one on each line.

About the first one, I think as far as the English-speaking fansite community is concerned, it's a bit of a lost cause. Old enmities and rivalries are too ingrained, and the fanbase is too large for these paradigms to move with any degree of ease. I'm sure if Bulbagarden and Serebii somehow declared that they would become partners, at least one person would comment that Hell has frozen over.

But it's not just a problem with the fansites themselves - the fans are also perpetuating the problem simply by being in those communities, and picking up "knowledge" from others. If I went up to ten random online Pokémon fans and asked them about Smogon, for example, I'd probably get seven people who claim "Oh, those competitively obsessed people who ban things left and right because they 'don't like it' and don't appreciate the game for what it is."

There is serious rivalry anywhere? I admit I haven't done more than glance round the forums of serebii and smogon, and my work on bulbapedia consists purely of making charts that are useful for me. I guess only people most dedicated to one site would care that other sites exist with different philosophies, and they are the most vocal.

Ask google.co.jp

Google Docs would be easier than Open Office.

Actually, Hell has frozen over several times. Yes, as I wrote I had several things going on in my head at the same time. Makes it real difficult to get things done sometimes.

As indicated, I had writer’s block. I cannot remember Eevee’s exact wording. I don’t think it was as strong as ‘rivalry’ though. More like . . . lack of coördination or . . . consistency?

I find myself in a strange position. I joined several forums for my research, although I made my home at GHPF. Now I am still a member of those other forums and the webmaster of Pokémon Dungeon, formerly GHPD. I also agree with Eevee about the knowledge about Pokémon should be freely shared.

Google Japan only got me TPCJ. The Japanese seem to use a different way of addressing their forum URLs and I am having figuring out the pattern. The Japanese are also very protective of their privacy. In many ways their internet culture has gone unchanged from the 1970s. I think that’s the way it should be, but it does make it difficult to make new friends. I found out that in order to join Mixi, a friend has to invite you. 8-\

Google Docs was created for Open Document programs like OpenOffice. Google Docs was also created so Google could have another way of tracking your business. I want to share my programs without passing hidden adware. Anyway, I don’t mean a direct transfer, but creating a program using the same tools he created his pokédex and movedex with. If the Trainers Assistant used them for its data, then it would probably be better that way anyway.

Also, if for some reason you didn’t have an internet connection, you wouldn’t be able to access Google Docs. While if you had OpenOffic and my finished file, you would have access to the program. The best firewall in the world can’t give you the privacy you have when you are not connected to the internet. And I don’t trust companies to not leave ‘holes’ for ‘marketing purposes’.

But I might be just unjustifiably suspicious of large corporations.

"As indicated, I had writer’s block. I cannot remember Eevee’s exact wording. I don’t think it was as strong as ‘rivalry’ though. More like ... lack of coördination or ... consistency?"

I think even if Eevee didn't mean rivalry, the rivalries still exist.

And whatever lack of coordination/consistency the fansites have probably stems from the fact that each fansite wants to assert its own legitimacy, and not be accused of having "stolen" information from another fansite, which happens rather often (I've seen enough accusations first-hand to know this). This is, again, a consequence of the deep rivalries that such sites have.

"Actually, Hell has frozen over several times."

Really? I probably haven't been in the fandom long enough (The Serebii/Bulbagarden dichotomy goes back probably into the early 2000's when I wasn't a fan at all) but when have they announced a formal partnership between the two of them? I'm genuinely curious.

"In many ways their internet culture has gone unchanged from the 1970s."

1980s or early 1990s, perhaps? The Internet culture wasn't really prevalent in the 1970s because almost nobody had it back then; it was mostly for researchers and university students and wasn't even called the Internet until 1982.

But yeah, I don't know enough about Japanese websites to know that stuff or even why it's the way it is. Perhaps it's simply the relatively conservative environment they live in?

@ spriteless:

"There is serious rivalry anywhere? I admit I haven't done more than glance round the forums of serebii and smogon, and my work on bulbapedia consists purely of making charts that are useful for me."

They obviously won't make a public display of it on their site (or allow anyone else to make such a public display) because it would be bad for the site's reputation. But pretty much every seasoned member of these fansites knows about these rivalries (or even participates in them) because it diffuses through the community that this person "stole" that piece of info from that one or that person put this piece of news up "more slowly" or this other site "sucks".

Smogon, which you listed as an example, doesn't fall prey to this much because they are more of a niche website, in the way of competitive battling, and pretty much no other website is well-known enough to have a chance at rivalling them. But everyone hates them too, as I said above, because they are "all a bunch of scrubs" who know no better than to "ban everything" that "they can't counter" or people who "ruin" the game by making it into a "competitive sausage-fest".

"I guess only people most dedicated to one site would care that other sites exist with different philosophies, and they are the most vocal."

If you get friendly with some of the webmasters, sometimes they will tell you things off the record that would completely incriminate them (not legally, but fandom-wise) were they to be said publicly. But then again, the webmasters are the people most dedicated to a single site - their own.

Yes, Hell freezes over almost every winter: http://michpics.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/hell-froze-over/

I have been on the internet since 1976. I can’t recall when it started being called the internet, but that sounds about right. We had rules of conduct called “netiqette” (internet etiquette). That was before big business ‘discovered’ the potential of the internet for marketing and then couldn’t function under the rules. They still haven’t been able to control everything, though. Although they finally got to Facebook . . . sort of.

Well, I suppose I might stir things up a bit. I plan to release my Trainers Assistant then release the information I used to build it. It’s been difficult collecting the information. There really isn’t much different from the printed guides, but sometimes its easier transferring the data from tables online than typing in the information. I’d kind of like to finish this project this year. At least up to Bk1/Wh1.

And of course, if Eevee agrees to building an online version on his site, that will be two sites coöperating. Which sounds like it might be a historic occasion.

"Yes, Hell freezes over almost every winter: http://michpics.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/hell-froze-over/"

You know that's not what I'm talking about. I thought you were referring to the metaphor I was speaking of.

"I have been on the internet since 1976. I can’t recall when it started being called the internet, but that sounds about right. We had rules of conduct called “netiqette” (internet etiquette)."

Netiquette still exists, if you find the right communities. It's not purely a 1970s thing. But those communities are pretty heavily gated sometimes.

Also, netiquette doesn't really cover privacy protection, other than "don't blurt out other people's personal info without their permission".

"And of course, if Eevee agrees to building an online version on his site, that will be two sites coöperating. Which sounds like it might be a historic occasion."

It's not unheard of to see just any two fansites partnering up or merging; what is uncommon is that two sufficiently major, well-known fansites do something of that sort.

One drawback of people being overly protective of privacy is that some people do it to avoid accountability for being total fuckwads (see the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory). While a gated community that enforces netiquette would do away with such users quite expeditiously, there are some communities that do no such thing.

It allows users to force other people to take their opinions more seriously, as "you don't know me; you don't know what I've been through. You can't make assumptions about me that will allow you to take my statements less seriously." Unfortunately, this effect will lead people (like me) to take opinions on the Internet less seriously by default, which is not good for honest conversation.

Back in the day, a site that was found out to host hackers who created viruses or hosted virus creating programs would be avoided. Word would get around that they were a pariah. I am not certain about how effective it was, but I would imagine that with no traffic and/or audience they had no reason to maintain the site.

Back then, no one thought about profitability too much. You did things as a hobby, or maybe to make a few extra dollars. Certainly you would never imagine becoming rich. However, you did have a persona, a reputation. If you were a nobody in real life, you could be somebody on the internet. But if no one associated with you, you had nothing.

Another problem with being overly protective of your identity and who you associate with is it makes it difficult to make new friends.

Sorry, Hell freezing over is a Michigan joke. OTOH, you could think of it as "Hell froze over and they still haven’t become partners".

"Back in the day, a site that was found out to host hackers who created viruses or hosted virus creating programs would be avoided. Word would get around that they were a pariah. I am not certain about how effective it was, but I would imagine that with no traffic and/or audience they had no reason to maintain the site."

No, but they could go on creating viruses with like-minded people. A critical mass of such people is self-sustaining. Perhaps back in 1976 it wasn't much of a problem because there weren't many people on the Internet anyway.

"Another problem with being overly protective of your identity and who you associate with is it makes it difficult to make new friends."

Trudat. Unfortunately there are people who exert their antisocial fantasies on the Internet, and with much success. Some people don't want friendship, they just want worship.

"However, you did have a persona, a reputation. If you were a nobody in real life, you could be somebody on the internet. But if no one associated with you, you had nothing."

Unfortunately, with the ubiquity of the Internet, there are people ready to associate with people who would otherwise have been considered complete douchebags by the majority of the educated Internet population. And thus their self-worth is perpetuated by a small circle of cronies which allows them to dismiss their having been dismissed by the larger part of the population.

"OTOH, you could think of it as 'Hell froze over and they still haven’t become partners'."

That would actually make sense.

Well, I just revived another project that I thought was dead and I would need to start over from scratch. It’s a spreadsheet for evaluating the Pokémon cards. I have it up to when baby pokémon had been introduced in the WotC sets. I will probably need some other adaptations for the newer sets, but I almost had it finished when I got stuck on something. I can’t tell what now. Everything is working except I need to have two fields added. I think the difference may be using OpenOffice instead of Works.

Once I set up the two last fields, the biggest problem will probably be adding all of the cards published since . . . 2008?

Well, I just did a quick check with Bulbapedia. Not counting the card data I already have in spreadsheet . . . oh, wait I have no card data entered in spreadsheets. Recalculating. The list I am using doesn’t show the promo cards.

. . . only 11,257 cards.